Interview With Beth Leonard And Evans Starzinger Of Hawk

This is the first of my interview series for the Metal Boat Quarterly. I will be posting my interviews on my blogs after they are released in the Metal Boat Quarterly. I recommend reading Beths books, you will not be disappointed. Click the titles for more information.

http://www.bethandevans.com/

DB: Beth Leonard and Evans Starzinger sailed their Shannon 37, Silk on their first circumnavigation in 1992 for three years and 40,000 miles. For their second circumnavigation, they sailed Hawk, a 47-foot aluminum Van de Stadt Samoa design from 1999-2009 through the high latitudes by way of the Great Capes. They have sailed Hawk 75,000 miles.

The first circumnavigation is documented in Beths book, Following Seas. 

Stories from their travels on Hawk are in the book, Blue Horizons.

And in my opinion, the best book on outfitting a cruising boat is the Voyagers Handbook, written by Beth Leonard.

You both a very well known in the cruising community, thank you for taking the time to talk to MBQ.

After a circumnavigation on a fiberglass boat why did you chose aluminum for Hawk?

B&E: Most people guess we chose metal for strength, as we planned to go to the high latitudes.  But in fact we picked it because we could make the decks absolutely leak proof.  Our experience with fiberglass decks was that after two or so ocean crossings the boat had worked enough that at least a few of the fasteners through the deck would start leaking. There are zero fastener holes through Hawks deck. Everything is either welded on, or machine screwed to blind tapped plates that are welded on.

We picked aluminum over steel both because it is less maintenance, and because it can produce a better performing/sailing boat.  You just dont have to keep after rust the way you do on a steel boat.

We have members building their own boats, you chose to have a hull built for you by Topper Hermanson and to finish the boat yourself. At what point of construction did you take delivery? 

From the outside the boat looked complete - deck hardware and mast all installed.  Inside it was close to a bare hull.  The foam was sprayed in, and the major bulkheads were in and the engine was installed, and I installed a head and two sea bunks, but otherwise it was just a bare foam cave.  We had an igloo cooler for food and I strung up some lines as hand grips to get to the head and sea bunks. And we sailed it like that offshore from Florida up to Annapolis.  She sailed very, very well, and Evans tried to talk Beth into just adding a couple beanbag chairs and going like that, but Beth insisted on a galley and settees and nav deck and proper storage, etc.

How long did it take to complete?

Evans had done some furniture building in school, so he knew what was involved to do a really fancy interior. He told Beth that we could take five years to do a really fancy interior with dovetails and hidden joints, or we could put a practical, easy-to-clean and easy-to-maintain interior in in less than a year. We both decided we preferred sailing to boatbuilding – which is not always the case. We have met many people who took years to build a boat, and when they got out there they discovered they really did not like cruising. We knew we loved cruising and wanted to get back to it as soon as possible.

In the end, the hull took two years, and then it took us about nine months to do the interior. Then we untied the docklines and sailed up to Newfoundland.

Beth I remember you saying this was your first experience with using power tools?

Yes. I had no experience using power tools, and was more than a little intimidated when Evans got sent off on a three-month trip to Russia leaving me to put in the ceilings. But instead of even getting to work on the ceilings, I spent most of the summer with an electric bread knife in 90 degree heat and 90 percent humidity in the Chesapeake carving off the excess foam insulation. By the time we were finished, I was pretty comfortable with more than just bread knives – I got used to handling radial arm saws, band saws, and drills.

What did you use for insulation on Hawk?

Three inches of sprayed-on fire resistant closed cell foam, with a paint barrier over it to prevent moisture getting to it.  It has worked perfectly and is still perfect today.  It does not seem to have absorbed any significant/noticeable amount of water.  The only thing we would differently is to try to get a contractor who could have sprayed it on more smoothly.

Evans could you tell us about your choice of bulk head material?

The whole boat interior is made of cored panels.  There are various cores (honeycomb and foam) and various skins (Mahogany and fiberglass) used in different applications.  These panels were about 3x the cost of plywood, but made the boat lighter, and are totally rot resistant, and are much easier to handle during construction.

How did you isolate the dissimilar metals on deck?

Mostly we used Phenolic pads and bushings.  Where we screwed into blind tapped holes we used helicoils set in red loctite.  

The topsides of Hawk are not painted., which can be a benefit of aluminum hulls. Have you been happy with this choice?

Absolutely, one of the two best things about the boat (the other is the hard dodger).  Bare topsides takes absolutely all the stress out of docking along pilings and rough fuel docks.  You just dont have to worry about dinging them up.  We often come alongside docks with no fenders down and just put them in place after we are tied up. One of Evans’ few regrets is that we did paint the coachroof and dodger. But Beth preferred that, even in retrospect, since she doesn’t do the maintenance. Bare aluminum is blisteringly hot in the tropics.

What was your paint system for the bottom and deck paint?

The boat was sand blasted and then a couple coats of a Devoe epoxy metal primer, and then the bottom paint (we were originally using a tin based paint when it was still legal, but are now using Pacifica Plus), and the deck paint is a factory floor coating (Durabek) which is a very nice and durable non-skid but does not look very yachty.

You have a Van De Stadt Somoa design, what are some of your favorite things about this design?

The hard dodger is the designs single best feature. It looks nice and offers excellent protection. That is a surprisingly rare combination.  Other than that, the boat sails really well, almost at race boat performance levels and much better than the vast majority of cruising boats.

Is there anything you would change about the design?

We would have gotten a slightly smaller boat, perhaps 42, if we could have but this was the smallest design that had the perfect hard dodger.

Do you have any advice for maintaining an aluminum boat or a cruising boat in general?

That is a huge topic. Generally we made a fundamental decision to keep the boat extremely simple.  This vastly reduced both the initial cost and the ongoing maintenance work load and we have never missed any of the conveniences we left off.  That goes double with an aluminum boat, where the single best thing you can do is keep the electrical system extremely simple, especially with minimal AC current.  This avoids the potential problems aluminum can have with bad electrical systems.

Just to give you an idea, we don’t have a watermaker, refrigeration, pressure water, A/C, SSB, powered winches, or an installed generator. Since most of our sailing has been in cold water, we use the bilge to keep food cold most of the time. We use  hand and foot pumps for water, and we have a Refleks drip diesel heater that gravity feeds out of its own tank. All of that means that we have minimal electrical draw which allows us to have a very simple electrical installation but with lots of battery capacity.

Do you have any suggestions about outfitting a boat for cruising, and anything in particular related to an aluminum boat?

Keep it simple is our best advice. Beyond that, keep it affordable. We see way too many people who end up with more boat than they can afford and not enough money to go cruising. Far better to downsize the boat at the start than to end up having to sell it because you can’t afford to keep and maintain it.

You two are not cruising full time now and Hawk is moored near Annapolis Maryland. Could you tell us about what you two are up now, and what plans you might have?

We have four parents all alive, between 75 and 85, and we want to stay close by where we can help them until they all pass away.  So, Beth is working as Director of Technical Services at BoatUS, and Evans has been CEO of two start-ups, and has been sailing up to Newfoundland for the summers.

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July 3 4 Parade up NY Harbor with LHermione 60 Miles

The New York Times of July 3 had a full page article on the visit of The Hermione. (We learned that while we pronounce her The Her-my-oh-knee, the French call her LAir-me-own.) A replica of the French square rigged wooden gunboat that ferried Lafayette across the puddle to help us win independence from the Brits. She visited Yorktown VA, where the original boat helped defeat the British resupply and re-enforcement fleet, thus causing General Cornwallis to surrender to General Washington, effectively ending the military aspects of the Revolution. We visited Yorktown on our way south and on our way north. Hermione is doing this as a good will tour, to remind us of our friendship with the French and making stops up the eastern seacoast to Boston. 

As Fleet Captain I put this out as a potential Club adventure and three other members joined us for the parade, though only two of us on  HYC registered boats. My friend since 1972, Marty, joined us at ten a.m. at the Harlem and we got underway at 11. But a failure of communication caused us to spend half an hour, drifting, waiting for "Shanghai," a Pearson 31, the other Harlem boat, with CJ and Jenny, while they had gone ahead. During the wait the NYC police burned off a vast stash of fireworks they had taken.

No problem once communications were restored; we caught up with Shanghai at about 90th Street in the East River, making great speed with the favorable tidal flow and engine.





ILENE, shown here passing 25th St.,used mainsail pretty much the whole way, but the wind was so light that except for a few puffs it mostly just prevented rocking.

 We anchored in Gravesend Bay, off the west end of Coney Island, Brooklyn, On the way we were passed by Gandalf 3, another Saga 43 out of Stamford, which I had visited to study its dinghy davit blocks before connecting ILENEs
Gravesend Bay is huge but exposed. But its very near where the parade was to start and there was very little wind at night, so we anchored out on the flat in 17 feet of water, with 70 feet of snubbed chain. There is a deeper channel, 25 to 27 feet, closer to shore, so we stayed further off. Our new smaller stainless steel snubber hook was deployed and it works like a charm. Finally!

Having left at 11:30, we arrived at 3:00 and lowered the dink. You cant miss the spot, Toys R Us put out a big welcome sign. The boats to the left are among the four French flagged Beneteaus,  Waquies [the key for the last letter of the alphabet is inoperative] and hard chined aluminum sloops "dressed" for the parade with their signal flags. They came in after us and anchored far enough away from us. I had expected more boats.

Then came a few hours rest, except I used the time in an unsuccessful attempt to get the cockpit VHF radio to power up. It is so convenient and useful because VHF Channel 8 was used for communications during the parade, but we had to use the inside radio turned up loud.

A shared dinner aboard ILENE for the five of us: Lene, Roger, Marty and CJ. Thanks for your pictures Jenny!

Everyone had brought food that did not need to be cooked and the menu was varied and delicious, starting with a bottle of champagne and cheese provided by Shanghai. We were together from 6 to 9 before I dinked CJ and Jenny back to Shanghai and everyone had a good nights sleep. Jenny, became infatuated with our cats, and can you blame her.

Sunset under the bridge:

In the morning, mango- sweetpotato pancakes were on the agenda, sweetened by honey that we had, and peanut butter that Jenny brought, not that the pancakes really needed to be sweetened much. And I forgot the bacon as well as the maple syrup! And the final system to seemingly go down was the fresh water pump. I can hear it run but it is not bringing water to the tap. So the dishes were rinsed off in a bucket of soapy seawater and will be properly washed once order is restored.

The parade formed up: about a hundred boats at its peak, all at the sides and rear of Hermione once she turned at the start.

I felt bad that I had not yet purchased a new American flag and flagpole after ours went missing during our winter excursion. But marty wore a sweater during the parade which eased my guilt.

The leader had a fetish about arriving under the Veransano Bridge, and at the Statue of Liberty, at precisely pre-scheduled times

presumably for the coordination of a US Navy flyover by two jets, for the media and for fire boat blasts, center in next photo.

But this caused me problems because Hermione did not maintain the five knots speed over ground that had been the plan and was repeated via VHF. I had only the small jib up and engine but it is hard to go straight when you slow down to 1.8 knots and when boats are perhaps fifteen feet away on both sides of you. I should have furled that jib but no harm done.    Here is Shanghai:

 The other expected Harlem participants were Gene, not on "Chandi Nerissa", but on a friends boat out of Stamford, which I did not see, and Rear Commodore Peter, not on "Annandale" but on Ricks boat, now in Jersey City who hailed us immediately after the parade formally ended. Several other Harlem boats rafted up in a rendesvous in Oyster Bay these days so there were plenty of guest moorings available.

I felt guilty for not having purchased a replacement for our American flag and pole, which went missing during our winter travels to Florida. But Marty assuaged my  guilt somewhat by wearing an appropriate sweater.

It was too early to go home when the parade ended because the tide in the East River and Hellsgate were adverse. So we drifted slowly down the Hudson from midtown to the Battery under only the small jib and tide.

The wind was down from the 15 knots out of the north that had faced us during the parade: still from the north but perhaps six knots. And a light rain was falling. When we reached the Battery Lene wanted to go home as soon as possible to see the fireworks from our roof so we did what was silly: we went up stream against the tide using motor, full main and small jib. Unlike the eight plus knots we had enjoyed on the way down, we made speeds that got as high as 4.2 knots, briefly, and as low as 1.1 knots at times.  But we were back on the mooring by 7:30, an hour before sundown. If we had waited two hours before starting, I think we would have arrived only fifteen minutes later, having expended a lot less fuel in the process.
A good time was had by all.

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Interview With Boat Designer John Simpson

Interview with John Simpson 

John Simpson has been a boat designer for 45 years. I had a chance meet him at a Metal Boat Festival a few years ago. Now every time I go to one I look forward to hearing him speak. He has a vast knowledge of boat design and is always willing to share that knowledge.

John, you have been a long time member of the Metal Boat Society and contributor to the Metal Boat Quarterly, thank you for your years of support.

DB: When did you get into boating?

JS: My first boating experience was at 4 years old with my dad in an open 16’ rental boat with inboard engine.

When did you realize you wanted to design boats for a living and how did you become a yacht/marine designer?

Even though I had been sketching out boats for several years and had been boating since 10, it was during a university summer job maintaining 3 naval utility vessels (75’, 48’, and 36’) that design and construction got into my blood stream. My first step was to interview several naval architects to get a feel for the business. All were very helpful and one suggested the best path was to marry a rich woman (I didn’t). I did another summer job in a boatyard leading to a 4 year marine design/drafting and engineering apprenticeship at a shipyard where we built several ferries & barges and at that time, the world’s largest semi-submersible oil rig. At completion I had jobs with several naval architects designing yachts, fish boats, dredges, barges, etc. Around 1972 (incorporated 1974) I started doing my own design work and topping up wages working with a boat builder.

Could you tell us about your first commission?

The ‘first’was a 70’ steel schooner shortly followed by a 33’ fuel efficient motor cruiser(s). Both are still in service

Since that first commission, how many boats have you designed?

By my records about 110 – sail, power, commercial ranging in size from 17’ to 80’ in steel, aluminum, and FRP. Some designs evolved from originals so the total number is higher.

This may not sound like a lot of designs over 40+years  but keep in mind that some designs can be complicated and if they need to meet Government Regulations, must be diligently monitored throughout construction… this and outside consult work absorbs time.

Not only do you have experience designing, but you have experience in building. Could you tell us about your boat building experience? 

From a bare hull: a 9’ sailing dinghy & a 22’ sail boat. Plus, 2 years with one builder followed by 3 years doing custom power boats 30’ – 50’, the latter as foreman, estimator, assistant manager, & designer.   

What lessons  have you learned from building that have helped with your design work?

Try not to design what one boss called an “Architect’s Dream”… ie: impossible to build. It was obvious that the designer had no boatbuilding experience and little boating experience.   I was just getting into my own design business and my ‘boss’ gave me some good advice:

 Never forget that one day:

(a)You may have to build one of your designs.

(b) You may have to use one of your designs.

I have done both on several occasions

As a designer you are well versed in not only yachts, but commercial vessels. I hope our readers will go to your website  http://www.simpsonmarinedesign.com and take a look at your portfolio. What are some of the challenges with commercial designs that are not present in recreational design?

The challenges are very similar but commercial boat (fishboats, etc) owners often push the limits, sometimes at great risk: Overloading, improper loading, or sailing into harm’s way, is not uncommon.  Not all boats are the same.

What are some of the challenges with recreational and cruising designs?

Very similar to commercial vessels: Different boats (designs) have different characteristics and each must be used within its limits. Putting a hot-tub on the housetop of a pontoon type house boat might be fine but on a motor cruiser, it may not be an option.

Any tips for the amateur builder looking at designs and wanting to build their own

boat?

(a)Choose the right design by getting some boating experience.

(b) Work up a realistic schedule – with particular attention to time. Unfortunate as it is, I have seen many cases where the ‘boat project’ outlived the builder.

(c)  Don’t underestimate the price. If your dream is a $500,000 yacht, you are not going to build it for $150,000. (not to the same standards at least.) 

(d)  Concentrate on the boat and not the parts. Building your own parts (windows, port lights, engine conversion, etc.) could be a poor investment of time: That 10 year project might stretch into 20…. And never get completed!

(e)  Use marine parts & equipment – it is designed for that purpose. Boats equipped with automotive and/or domestic equipment may put you at risk. 

(f)    Get the ‘other half’ involved- being a “boat widow” is not fun.

(g)  Pay now…or .. Pay later. Doing it properly the first time is a good investment. Corrections later can sometimes be very costly…. If they can be done at all.

Any tips for anyone wanting to modify a design of an existing boat?

Be very cautious: small changes can sometimes have huge consequences. Work with a naval architect/designer (preferably the one who did your boat)

Could you tell us about your consulting services you offer?

This covers wide variety of services ranging from performance estimates, propeller sizing, stability evaluation, to a design check (a review of the design with a second opinion).

Anything on the drawing board you want to tell us about?

A small project for a client that did a circumnavigation in one of my designs. They want to go from ‘offshore’ to ‘inshore’.  It is a 30’, easily transportable sailing punt to be used for exploring various inland waters in North America & beyond.

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